If the United States truly thinks about withdrawing from NATO, then European security will be based solely on the European Union. But not in its current form. I think that the EU is in a situation where it needs more countries. The UK, Ukraine, Türkiye, and Norway. These are four strong countries, which are part of Europe. Together, the UK, Ukraine, and Türkiye have armies that are stronger than Russia's army. Without Ukraine and Türkiye, Europe can’t match Russia. With the four countries on board you can wrest control of the seas, have secure skies and the largest land forces. It’s not about offense, because when Russia makes the decision to have an army of 2.5 million people by 2030, Europe has to think about security and how to preserve its independence. The UK once was a member of the EU. There are concerns about agriculture when it comes to Türkiye. But you can manage all of this if you have a really great economy. But security comes first, economy second. Not vice versa. From an interview on The Rest Is Politics podcast (5/5).