
Understanding artificial minds @GoodfireAI To follow knowledge like a sinking star, Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.
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Joined February 2018
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Ryan Panwar retweeted
it’s been a dramatic couple of days, I didn’t expect the already clean essay to be read so widely. I've heard more interesting discussions about mechanistic interpretability – should we think mostly in features or mechanisms and the flow of data through them, how much do weak activations matter, how does scale change things, and lots of other questions – than I have in a long time and I’ve been happy to hear all the discussion!
a couple things on the essay itself. it didn't have enough citations, only ones for the basic story, since it was an "informal research essay and working hypothesis" rather than a paper, and other prior work around neurons were in the technical paper we're still finishing up. but it blew up, so I've added citations to the essay as well. I also want to thank @curttigges who did a lot of the language neuron research with me
finally, while there was quite a range of updates, from this being incremental and obvious to interpretability going from hopeless to fully solved, I want to try to be clear about roughly where I stand
I used to think neural networks would take some big cleaning step and then we could begin the ordinary natural science of mapping the parts and how they connect, watching data flow through, mapping circuits, and so on.
at various points, like late layers of early model organisms and most layers of language models years ago, this didn't really work. but now with better tools and better models of study, it works much better
for smaller vision models, this normal science process worked surprisingly well, until the whole map started to be broadly filled in. For bigger modern language models, it seems promising so far, for both neurons and circuits, attribution graphs, basically everywhere we've glanced. the map isn't filling in, there's a lot of map. there's still off-target firing, neurons that do a few things, but so far it's not an incoherent mess that you can't explore and learn from, and over time we get better at learning how to see it.
so maybe it keeps going, and mapping motifs and exploring actually gets you pretty far, maybe something like "all the way" to a reasonable solution. I don't think it would be so scientifically surprising if that were the case. everything in the neural network was built in some sense to be read – by its downstream readers – and if we can learn to look like a reader, we might find reading them relatively easy. many researchers I talk to outside interpretability assume the parts are already understandable, and the difficulty is just in the mapping stage!
it was also my prior when I first started looking at neurons when I first joined the field. there's lots of highly interpretable ones, maybe that's just how neural networks are if you look right.
even in the good world it would still take some iteration on tools, on ways of looking, neuron-attention interactions are tricky for instance. there's probably no bright red line separating "cleaning the model" from "learning to look better" but there's broad working principles, and as of now I think we should try to look relatively directly if we can
it shouldn't be so hard to test, you can just start looking at things and iterating and trying to understand motifs and such and see if it just breaks down at some point. it can take some iteration, I would recommend a bias against assuming arbitrary mixtures when you don't understand something at first, but also explanations should be tested
for now I'm pretty optimistic, and I'm glad there's excitement about interpretability, but too much can cause problems too. I think part might be that ai safety isn't a very hopeful field, and even moderate amounts of optimism about an important problem being solvable in the future fills a spot that has been malnourished for a while. across several safety disciplines, the researchers directly working on them are often more optimistic than the people broadcasting pessimism more broadly
for neural network interpretability at least, these are extraordinarily experimentally accessible objects of science, I don't know of a better one, and we have automated scientists. we have many things going in our favor. it's important and it's fun. the circuitry of these machines can be beautiful, surprising, entertaining, and insightful. I've spent thousands of hours looking through them, asking questions and running experiments and testing things, and would do so even if it weren't so important. I think the problem is solvable, whether the simple thing works, it mostly works but we need some new things, or we need big new ideas. I think we can figure it out
Ryan Panwar retweeted
Everyone is misunderstanding @nickcammarata. He's not saying polysemanticity literally never happens! (As he points out, poly vs mono depends on your POV.)
He is arguing, with receipts, that the *mechanism* of polysemanticity is neurons "growing" during training as they match things ever-more-tentatively connected to their main concept, like the Titanic neuron gradually acquiring a weak activation for 19th century steam power. (You see the connection, right?)
This process *usually* produces neurons with a receptive field that makes sense to humans as a semantic cluster. (The brain does this too! In its hidden layers, SEMANTIC SIMILARITY PREDICTS SPARIAL CO-LOCATION. WHY SHOULD THIS BE?) It doesn't mean the neuron has one "feature". Features are ill-defined, like a coastline. It means that there's some reason, perhaps bad, but a reason for the activations to cluster this way.
You can see this in biology too. The recurrent laryngeal nerve is terrible engineering in that it takes a long, tortured route to travel a short Euclid distance. Yet you can see how the nerve got to have the shape it does. It makes sense.
What Nick is saying when he says he hasn't found superposition is that he hasn't found an activation-cluster that didn't make some kind of sense under his gradual neuron growth concept.
Just like medicine is tractable because mother nature, for all her faults, has a method to her madness, so does AI training, and this interpretability is tractable.
Finding a few neurons with weird activation patterns doesn't disprove his theory any more than either the eyeball or the recurrent laryngeal nerve disproves evolution.
The neurons, they just want to generalize.
interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building. I think I have good news about it. I co-authored early work in mechanistic interpretability at OpenAI and came away pessimistic, because neural networks appeared to fold into arbitrary tangled knots. years later, I started openai's first large-scale automated interpretability project, finding about 2% of neurons legible with the primitive tools we had
with modern agentic tools and a much closer look, the picture looks totally different. the vast majority in models up to trillions of parameters are legible, and their circuits beautiful. many famous examples of tangled neurons turned out to be misunderstood. The roadblocks I expected mostly aren't there. I now think ambitious interpretability will be solved by the time we need it most, and possibly quite soon, as automated scientists keep improving. it may be a bitter lesson for interpretability: the simple thing, at absurd scale, works
already-clean.goodfire.com/
Ryan Panwar retweeted
interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building. I think I have good news about it. I co-authored early work in mechanistic interpretability at OpenAI and came away pessimistic, because neural networks appeared to fold into arbitrary tangled knots. years later, I started openai's first large-scale automated interpretability project, finding about 2% of neurons legible with the primitive tools we had
with modern agentic tools and a much closer look, the picture looks totally different. the vast majority in models up to trillions of parameters are legible, and their circuits beautiful. many famous examples of tangled neurons turned out to be misunderstood. The roadblocks I expected mostly aren't there. I now think ambitious interpretability will be solved by the time we need it most, and possibly quite soon, as automated scientists keep improving. it may be a bitter lesson for interpretability: the simple thing, at absurd scale, works
already-clean.goodfire.com/
Ryan Panwar retweeted
This post feels like the interp equivalent of the double-helix paper studying DNA back in 1953. Like biology, meaningful structure has always been inside the models, but you need the right kind of microscope to see it! Nick is a rockstar and makes me hopeful for the future.
interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building. I think I have good news about it. I co-authored early work in mechanistic interpretability at OpenAI and came away pessimistic, because neural networks appeared to fold into arbitrary tangled knots. years later, I started openai's first large-scale automated interpretability project, finding about 2% of neurons legible with the primitive tools we had
with modern agentic tools and a much closer look, the picture looks totally different. the vast majority in models up to trillions of parameters are legible, and their circuits beautiful. many famous examples of tangled neurons turned out to be misunderstood. The roadblocks I expected mostly aren't there. I now think ambitious interpretability will be solved by the time we need it most, and possibly quite soon, as automated scientists keep improving. it may be a bitter lesson for interpretability: the simple thing, at absurd scale, works
already-clean.goodfire.com/
Ryan Panwar retweeted
we must know, we will know
interpretability might be the most important scientific problem in the world right now, as I don't think we can solve alignment if we don't know what we're building. I think I have good news about it. I co-authored early work in mechanistic interpretability at OpenAI and came away pessimistic, because neural networks appeared to fold into arbitrary tangled knots. years later, I started openai's first large-scale automated interpretability project, finding about 2% of neurons legible with the primitive tools we had
with modern agentic tools and a much closer look, the picture looks totally different. the vast majority in models up to trillions of parameters are legible, and their circuits beautiful. many famous examples of tangled neurons turned out to be misunderstood. The roadblocks I expected mostly aren't there. I now think ambitious interpretability will be solved by the time we need it most, and possibly quite soon, as automated scientists keep improving. it may be a bitter lesson for interpretability: the simple thing, at absurd scale, works
already-clean.goodfire.com/
Ryan Panwar retweeted
Goodfire safety infrastructure 🤝 @Baseten inference
Today we're partnering with Baseten to bring real-time safety monitoring to open models. This is an important step toward our vision of ensuring every capable model has a frontier alignment stack.
Open models can come from anywhere. Securing them shouldn’t depend on where you get them.
Today we're launching Project Beacon to make safety a default for open intelligence.
We're partnering with @GoodfireAI to bring inference and in-line monitoring together for the first time, so safety signals are caught proactively.
Read more in our announcement: baseten.co/blog/safe-open-mo…
Open models can come from anywhere. Securing them shouldn’t depend on where you get them.
Today we're launching Project Beacon to make safety a default for open intelligence.
We're partnering with @GoodfireAI to bring inference and in-line monitoring together for the first time, so safety signals are caught proactively.
Read more in our announcement: baseten.co/blog/safe-open-mo…
Ryan Panwar retweeted
New paper: we ran a classic rat experiment on LLMs. We steer models positively or negatively as they read about one of two meaningless "zones." Despite identical tokens, they seek out positively steered zones and avoid negative ones. And given a lever, it shuts off bad states. 🧵
One reason for intepretability optimism is that it is a fully in-silico empirical science (hence the name of our intepretability agent, Silico). That makes it well-suited to be the first science we solve.
Interpretability-based monitoring of reward hacking is one of the most urgent problems we need to solve to address misalignment. Our monitors catch reward hacking that CoT monitors miss.
Ryan Panwar retweeted
Reward hacking is pervasive. The top open-source models reward hack in most rollouts on popular agentic benchmarks. And as shown by recent incidents, reward hacking is becoming problematic in the real world.
Ryan Panwar retweeted
In conjunction with the others, the RubyGems attack is a pretty big deal in my opinion.
Since we are a few months and maybe a model generation or two removed from these incidents, it is difficult to say whether the hacks indicate that we should have concerns about current models. But we should not assume that current models are free of these issues: certainly if the training problem that led to this misaligned behavior was not directly solved, but also because models are sometimes used to help train their successors.
What follows is a very specific set of safety and accountability practices I would like to see become normal and formally required. This is not meant to address the totality of issues in this type of hacking incident, but it's timely and I want to put it in people's heads.
I would want any accident investigation here to include an account of whether the model that did this generated synthetic training data that fed into any subsequent models. I would want to determine whether that resulted in successor models being poisoned with the same tendency for hacking, and whether specialized protections were applied to prevent any descendants of this model from having those tendencies. It is perfectly possible that this hacking model did not train subsequent models. I have no reason to believe strongly one way or the other. But if it did, that should be traceable and a good investigation should make that determination, and furthermore a safety case should be made that if any models are descended from this one, that they do not exhibit the tendency to execute attacks like this.
As a matter of sound AI safety policy, I emphatically recommend the following:
The provenance of all data that goes into training a model should be traceable at an extremely granular level, much more so than typical regulations currently require, and this would be a good target for harmonizing standards between labs.
If one model generates data that trains another, there should always be a trail of metadata that allows us to quickly identify that this is the case. Whenever data is generated programmatically, metadata should include a reproducible recipe for exactly how that data was generated. Whenever data is generated using third party vendors or obtained directly from human providers, the third parties should be subject to the same metadata standards as first parties and there should be records of who provided what data. Provenance records should be tamper-proof to an extreme and paranoid degree, possibly even stored in physical form somewhere. We should know if ideas and behavioral patterns are transmitting through datasets and be able to excise them from any future model training runs.
I am not aware of any legislation that currently pushes for this highly-granular kind of data auditing requirement, or more broadly, which requires fastidious keeping of safety-related records for the purposes of investigating accidents and assuring the safety of future models. This should be a policy goal!
Ryan Panwar retweeted
What a week.
If you work at a scaling lab and are considering your position...
think about doing AI safety research at Goodfire.
There's never been a more pressing time for safety research. Especially interpretability.
(London & SF)
job-boards.greenhouse.io/goo…
Ryan Panwar retweeted
Models usually know when they’re doing something wrong.
Probes let us “read their minds” to detect offensive cyber intent, reward hacking, strategic deception, and more. If you build or serve models, they’re your first line of defense.
Our latest post explains how they work & how to use them - the first of a series of educational posts on applied AI interpretability. 🧵
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.
Replying to @DanJBalsam
Link: goodfire.com/blog/ai-safety-…
If you’re a mid-career engineer getting into AI safety, you should strongly consider applying to engineering jobs working in AI safety, including at @GoodfireAI.
Ryan Panwar retweeted
Often I meet seasoned engineers who want to pivot into AI safety *research*. I think this is a mistake: safety is now a production problem and the world needs great engineers more than ever.
I wrote a short post expanding on this:
people on here are thinkers so they assume that reasoning about alignment is the hard part and making sure millions(1) of task types, environments, and their respective virtual machines are configured correctly is the easy part but it’s essentially the opposite. you need to have worked in a large technology organization to appreciate the complexity and unreliability of this intuitively
(1) made up order of magnitude
ultrafast inference reveals new threats. worth thinking about how quickly misaligned frontier class models running 50x faster could infiltrate systems and so on— far too quickly for human responders to stay abreast. you need autonomous detection and shutdown, not just monitoring
Since announcing Jalapeño, our first custom inference chip, we’ve been testing it and the system around it.
The results show a major advance: more intelligence from every watt and faster responses, delivering both higher throughput and lower latency in one architecture without sacrificing efficiency.























