Proved my point
Replying to @RealMBoxerman77 @Fx1Jonny
Academia says the exact opposite of what you’re saying. The Mishnah redaction of Judah ha Nāsi in the 3rd Century CE was just the BEGINNING of the textual tradition’s evolution wherein the text constantly changed for literally hundreds of years.
And the irony is that you say I’m confusing the oral tradition with the textual tradition, when you are the one saying “You’ve confused the age of the oldest surviving copy with the age of the text” which is a completely nonsensical statement. There is the Mishnah as a tradition which was primarily oral and then a much later and VERY variegated textual tradition that only BEGAN with Judah ha Nāsi’s redaction in the 3rd Century CE.
“Mishnah and Talmud were transmitted in oral fashion throughout the entire period of the tannaim and amoraim… it is far harder to detect when they began to circulate as written texts.”
[Ya’aqov Sussman, cited in Becoming the People of the Talmud, UPENN Press]
“Textual variations were not the result of errors in transmission, but rather reflected the cumulative impact of an ongoing process of conscious emendation of the text of the Mishnah.”
[J.N. Epstein, Introduction to the Mishnaic Text]
“The Kaufmann Manuscript… was probably written between 950 and 1050 CE, though some scholars date it to the twelfth century… and the vocalization was introduced from a copy of the Mishnah having a different text than the Kaufmann manuscript.”
[History of Information, Michael Krupp, Manuscripts of the Mishna, ed. Shmuel Safrai]
“The Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the Babylonian rabbinic tradition differed significantly from the Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the Palestinian rabbinic tradition. Moreover, there are clear indications of considerable differences between different versions of the Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the various rabbinic academies within the Babylonian and the Palestinian communities themselves.”
[Encyclopaedia Judaica, 2nd Ed, Jewish Virtual Library]
“The original forms of the lemmata in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and early midrashic collections were no longer retrievable. The reason: it was the editorial work of combining Rabbinic lemmata into larger units of tradition that had itself occasioned the creation of the formulas that govern the transmission of the lemmata.”
[Martin S. Jaffee, Oral Tradition, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1999)]
So, in sum, you are claiming that a book which has copious manuscript evidence from the 7th century CE, the very date of the claimed origin, copied from a body of work that has been a flotsam and jetsam of variegated material constantly morphing over hundreds of years and has little to no MSS evidence before the 10th Century. Even to this day, they’re not sure about the text:
“By providing a comprehensive analysis and categorization of both the real and the apparent textual variants of the Mishnah attested in talmudic sources and in medieval manuscripts, Epstein's work was supposed to provide the foundation for a critical edition of the Mishnah. After more than 50 years since the publication of his work, this critical edition is still ‘in preparation.’”
[Jewish Virtual Library, Mishnah article on J.N. Epstein’s landmark Introduction to the Mishnaic Text (1948).]
So as I said, produce a single manuscript of the Mishnah that pre-dates the Qur’an that contains something found “verbatim” in the Qur’an. Otherwise, have the integrity to acknowledge that you can’t, or at least stop this nonsensical claim.
Proved my point.
Replying to @RealMBoxerman77 @Fx1Jonny
Academia says the exact opposite of what you’re saying. The Mishnah redaction of Judah ha Nāsi in the 3rd Century CE was just the BEGINNING of the textual tradition’s evolution wherein the text constantly changed for literally hundreds of years.
And the irony is that you say I’m confusing the oral tradition with the textual tradition, when you are the one saying “You’ve confused the age of the oldest surviving copy with the age of the text” which is a completely nonsensical statement. There is the Mishnah as a tradition which was primarily oral and then a much later and VERY variegated textual tradition that only BEGAN with Judah ha Nāsi’s redaction in the 3rd Century CE.
“Mishnah and Talmud were transmitted in oral fashion throughout the entire period of the tannaim and amoraim… it is far harder to detect when they began to circulate as written texts.”
[Ya’aqov Sussman, cited in Becoming the People of the Talmud, UPENN Press]
“Textual variations were not the result of errors in transmission, but rather reflected the cumulative impact of an ongoing process of conscious emendation of the text of the Mishnah.”
[J.N. Epstein, Introduction to the Mishnaic Text]
“The Kaufmann Manuscript… was probably written between 950 and 1050 CE, though some scholars date it to the twelfth century… and the vocalization was introduced from a copy of the Mishnah having a different text than the Kaufmann manuscript.”
[History of Information, Michael Krupp, Manuscripts of the Mishna, ed. Shmuel Safrai]
“The Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the Babylonian rabbinic tradition differed significantly from the Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the Palestinian rabbinic tradition. Moreover, there are clear indications of considerable differences between different versions of the Mishnah as studied and transmitted in the various rabbinic academies within the Babylonian and the Palestinian communities themselves.”
[Encyclopaedia Judaica, 2nd Ed, Jewish Virtual Library]
“The original forms of the lemmata in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and early midrashic collections were no longer retrievable. The reason: it was the editorial work of combining Rabbinic lemmata into larger units of tradition that had itself occasioned the creation of the formulas that govern the transmission of the lemmata.”
[Martin S. Jaffee, Oral Tradition, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1999)]
So, in sum, you are claiming that a book which has copious manuscript evidence from the 7th century CE, the very date of the claimed origin, copied from a body of work that has been a flotsam and jetsam of variegated material constantly morphing over hundreds of years and has little to no MSS evidence before the 10th Century. Even to this day, they’re not sure about the text:
“By providing a comprehensive analysis and categorization of both the real and the apparent textual variants of the Mishnah attested in talmudic sources and in medieval manuscripts, Epstein's work was supposed to provide the foundation for a critical edition of the Mishnah. After more than 50 years since the publication of his work, this critical edition is still ‘in preparation.’”
[Jewish Virtual Library, Mishnah article on J.N. Epstein’s landmark Introduction to the Mishnaic Text (1948).]
So as I said, produce a single manuscript of the Mishnah that pre-dates the Qur’an that contains something found “verbatim” in the Qur’an. Otherwise, have the integrity to acknowledge that you can’t, or at least stop this nonsensical claim.
Muslims, you cannot reconcile why your Quran uses, sometimes verbatim, Jewish rabbinical midrash and calls it the words of Allah.
You have no answer for this.
Michael Boxerman מיכאל בוקסרמן retweeted
One Law theology and replacement theology are two sides of the same coin that flattens the Torah's legal distinction between Jew and Gentile. Replacement theology effectively makes everyone Gentile. One Law theology effectively makes everyone Jewish. Paul taught neither.
Watch the full episode here: vist.ly/57ft9
Michael Boxerman מיכאל בוקסרמן retweeted
“No distinction” does not mean “no difference.” Paul meant Gentiles don’t need to become Jewish to belong to Messiah. It was never meant to flatten Jewish identity into something generic.
Watch the full episode here: vist.ly/56r7t
Replying to @mihsta7
@mihsta7 Here’s your proof.
1. Quran 5:32 ← Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5
Quran 5:32 (key clause):
مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا … فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا
min ajli dhālika katabnā ʿalā banī isrāʾīla annahu man qatala nafsan … fa-ka-annamā qatala al-nāsa jamīʿan wa-man aḥyāhā fa-ka-annamā aḥyā al-nāsa jamīʿan
“For that reason We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul… it is as if he killed all mankind, and whoever saves one, as if he saved all mankind.”
Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5:
לְפִיכָךְ נִבְרָא אָדָם יְחִידִי… שֶׁכָּל הַמְאַבֵּד נֶפֶשׁ אַחַת… כְּאִלּוּ אִבֵּד עוֹלָם מָלֵא, וְכָל הַמְקַיֵּם נֶפֶשׁ אַחַת… כְּאִלּוּ קִיֵּם עוֹלָם מָלֵא
lefikhakh nivra adam yechidi… shekol ha-me’abed nefesh achat… ke’ilu ibed olam male, ve-khol ha-mekayem nefesh achat… ke’ilu kiyem olam male
“Therefore Adam was created alone, to teach you that whoever destroys a single soul, Scripture accounts it as if he destroyed an entire world; and whoever sustains a single soul, as if he sustained an entire world.”
Dating: Mishnah redacted by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi c. 200 CE — roughly four centuries before the Quran. Uncontested.
The fingerprint (two of them):
•The Mishnah’s ruling is derived from an exegetical premise: “therefore Adam was created alone (yechidi).” The whole teaching exists to explain why God made one man — so no one could claim a superior lineage, and to mark the infinite worth of a single life descended from one source. The Quran reproduces the conclusion and discards the derivation. You inherit the verdict without the argument that generates it. That’s the residue of copying.
•Even sharper: “We decreed upon the Children of Israel.” A universal moral law from the lips of God needs no ethnic addressee. That clause only makes sense if the author received this as an in-house Jewish teaching about Israel and preserved the framing while elevating it to revelation. The seam is showing.
2. Quran 2:63 / 2:93 / 7:171 ← Talmud Bavli, Shabbat 88a
Quran 7:171:
وَإِذْ نَتَقْنَا الْجَبَلَ فَوْقَهُمْ كَأَنَّهُ ظُلَّةٌ وَظَنُّوا أَنَّهُ وَاقِعٌ بِهِمْ
wa-idh nataqnā al-jabala fawqahum ka-annahu ẓullatun wa-ẓannū annahu wāqiʿun bihim
“And when We raised the mountain above them as if it were a canopy, and they thought it would fall upon them…”
(2:63 and 2:93 repeat the image: rafaʿnā fawqakumu al-ṭūr — “We raised the Mount over you.”)
Talmud Bavli, Shabbat 88a:
אָמַר רַב אַבְדִּימִי בַּר חָמָא… מְלַמֵּד שֶׁכָּפָה הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא עֲלֵיהֶם אֶת הָהָר כְּגִיגִית, וְאָמַר לָהֶם: אִם אַתֶּם מְקַבְּלִים הַתּוֹרָה מוּטָב, וְאִם לָאו שָׁם תְּהֵא קְבוּרַתְכֶם
amar Rav Avdimi bar Chama… melamed shekafah HaKadosh Barukh Hu aleihem et hahar ke-gigit, ve-amar lahem: im atem mekablim haTorah mutav, ve-im lav sham tehei kevuratkhem
“Rav Avdimi bar Chama said: This teaches that the Holy One overturned the mountain above them like an inverted cask (gigit), and said: ‘If you accept the Torah, good; if not, there will be your burial.’”
Dating: The stam (anonymous redactional layer) of the Bavli is c. 500–600 CE, and Rav Avdimi is an earlier amora. Firmly pre-Islamic.
The fingerprint — and this is the strongest single argument in the whole set:
The midrash is manufactured out of a Hebrew preposition. Exodus 19:17 reads vayityatzvu be-tachtit ha-har — plain sense, “they stationed themselves at the foot of the mountain.” But tachtit can be torqued to mean “underneath.” Rav Avdimi reads it hyper-literally: they stood under the mountain, because God lifted it over their heads like an overturned tub. The entire image is an artifact of Hebrew wordplay. It cannot be generated in any other language.
mechanism stripped away.
The Quran has the image with photographic precision — suspended mountain, fear of being crushed (ẓannū annahu wāqiʿun bihim) — but it has no access to the Hebrew pun that produces it. The conclusion arrives in Arabic, severed from the only mechanism on earth that could have created it. That is not shared revelation. That is downstream transmission of a Hebrew derash.
3. Quran 21:51–71 ← Genesis Rabbah 38:13 (+ the Ur/fire pun)
Quran 21:58, 63:
فَجَعَلَهُمْ جُذَاذًا إِلَّا كَبِيرًا لَّهُمْ… قَالَ بَلْ فَعَلَهُ كَبِيرُهُمْ هَٰذَا فَاسْأَلُوهُمْ إِن كَانُوا يَنطِقُونَ
fa-jaʿalahum judhādhan illā kabīran lahum… qāla bal faʿalahu kabīruhum hādhā fa-sʾalūhum in kānū yanṭiqūn
“So he broke them to pieces, except the largest of them … He said, ‘Rather, this — the largest — did it, so ask them, if they can speak.’”
Quran 21:68–69:
قَالُوا حَرِّقُوهُ … قُلْنَا يَا نَارُ كُونِي بَرْدًا وَسَلَامًا عَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ
qālū ḥarriqūhu… qulnā yā nāru kūnī bardan wa-salāman ʿalā ibrāhīm
“They said, ‘Burn him…’ We said, ‘O fire, be coolness and safety upon Abraham.’”
Genesis Rabbah 38:13 (Avraham in Terach’s idol shop):
נְטַל מַקֵּל… וְשִׁבְּרָן לְכָל הַפְּסִילִים וְנָתַן הַמַּקֵּל בְּיַד הַגָּדוֹל שֶׁבָּהֶן… אָמַר לוֹ וְלָמָּה אַתָּה מַשְׂטֶה בִּי וְכִי יוֹדְעִין הֵן? אָמַר לוֹ וְלֹא יִשְׁמְעוּ אָזְנֶיךָ מַה שֶּׁפִּיךָ אוֹמֵר
“He took a stick and smashed all the idols, and placed the stick in the hand of the largest among them… [Terach] said, ‘Why do you mock me — do they have knowledge?’ [Avraham] said, ‘Let your ears hear what your mouth is saying.’”
Dating: Genesis Rabbah redacted c. 400–500 CE in the Land of Israel; the underlying traditions are older. Pre-Islamic.
The fingerprints (two distinct ones):
•The idol-smashing plot device. “Smash all but the largest, then pin the blame on the survivor” is a highly specific, non-obvious narrative move. Two independent traditions do not invent the identical gambit. Quran 21:63 — “rather, the largest did it” — is the punchline of the Genesis Rabbah scene, lifted whole.
•The furnace — another Hebrew pun. The fire legend has no basis in the Genesis text itself. It is generated by reading Ur Kasdim (“Ur of the Chaldeans,” Gen 15:7) as if ur were the Hebrew אוּר, “flame/fire” — so “I brought you out of the fire of the Chaldeans.” From that pun the rabbis built Avraham’s deliverance from Nimrod’s furnace. Quran 21:69 has the furnace and the miraculous cooling — but, once again, no access to the Hebrew word that births the entire legend. Same signature as Sinai: a Hebrew-bound derash surfacing in Arabic with its generating
No substance from a Jew hating antisemite who says he can debate Jews. All I have is an idiot who can’t string together a coherent thought.
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Someone got their panties in a wad.
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It is a great day when you can make a hater look foolish when they come at you with something so simple.
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Replying to @muslimorthodoxy
Start by naming what a contradiction actually requires. A contradiction is the assertion of P and not-P about the same subject in the same respect at the same time. “Hanged himself” and “fell and burst open” are not P and not-P. They are two facts about one corpse at two moments. To call that a contradiction you have to first assume the two accounts are competing total descriptions of the same instant, and then read them as rivals. That assumption is doing all the work, and it is not in the text. So before you reach “it simply is a contradiction,” you have already smuggled in the conclusion. That is dogma driving data, which is the exact charge you tried to level.
Now the ad-hoc objection, turned around. Your principle is “if you allow reconciling details, you can reconcile anything.” Fine, hold that principle steady and watch where it goes. The “two distinct traditions” theory is not the lean, data-driven option. It is the one bristling with invented machinery. To run it you must posit (1) two independent streams of tradition, (2) which somehow converge on the identical man, the identical thirty pieces, the identical single field, and the identical proper name Akeldama, Field of Blood, while (3) Lukas, who opens his two-volume work by claiming he investigated everything carefully and in order, unknowingly preserved a tradition that flatly contradicts a death account he is supposedly unaware of. That is more unverifiable hypotheses, not fewer. You have not followed the data. You have built a source-critical apparatus to escape the obvious and then called the obvious “ad hoc.” The convergence is the datum. The divergence sits at precisely the one seam where ordinary physical causation joins the two halves. That is the fingerprint of independent testimony, not of contradiction.
Mode of death, with the Greek doing its job. Mattityahu: ἀπήγξατο, he hanged himself. This is the only occurrence of that verb in the Besorah, and it is the same verb the LXX uses for Achitophel in 2 Samuel 17:23, the counselor who betrays David and then goes and hangs himself. That is not decoration. Achitophel is the Tanakh’s archetype of the trusted intimate who turns, and Psalm 41:10, “even my close friend who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me,” is the very text Yeshua applies to Yehudah at the table. Mattityahu is not clumsily reporting a mechanism that later needs rescuing. He is writing the betrayer’s end in the key of Israel’s archetypal betrayer, and hanging on a tree carries the weight of Devarim 21:23, the visible sign of the curse. Lukas (πρηνὴς γενόμενος ἐλάκησεν μέσος, falling headlong he burst asunder) records the aftermath: a body left hanging through the festival heat while priests deliberate, swelling and rupturing when the rope or branch gives, on the steep rocky ground of the Hinnom that tradition fixes as Akeldama. Supplying the line between “hanged” and “fell and burst” is not invention. It is the single causal step the two accounts jointly demand.
Who bought the field. Mattityahu: the priests took the silver, refused it for the treasury as blood money, and bought the potter’s field. Lukas: Yehudah ἐκτήσατο, acquired, a field with the wages of unrighteousness. There is no clash. It was his money. The priests themselves call it the price of blood and will not bank it, which means morally it never stopped being Yehudah’s. They disposed of his funds as his agents, and the grim irony Lukas presses is that the only estate the betrayer ever gained from his treachery was a grave bought with his own blood money. Semitic idiom routinely credits the action to the one who funds or causes it. A man “builds” the house his hired masons lay. Naming the men who handled the transaction and naming the man whose silver paid for it are not rival claims of ownership.
Then close the trap. You said reconciling by invoking unlikely details lets you reconcile anything. Apply that standard evenhandedly to the transmission of your own text and it does not nick the Besorah, it guts the Qur’an. When two ayat conflict the standard resolution is naskh, abrogation, the purest ad-hoc instrument imaginable, and your own scholars cannot agree on how many verses it touches. The seven ahruf are an entire unexplained category invoked specifically to absorb variant recitations, recorded in Bukhari in the incident of Umar and Hisham reciting al-Furqan differently, and the meaning of the ahruf is itself contested across dozens of competing theories. The qira’at are not mere vowel points; canonical readings differ in consonantal skeleton and in meaning. Uthman, again in Bukhari, standardized one codex and ordered the rest burned. The codex of Ibn Mas’ud reportedly lacked al-Fatiha and the two mu’awwidhatan; the codex of Ubayy ibn Ka’b reportedly carried suras yours does not. The Sana’a palimpsest is a physical manuscript whose erased lower layer departs from the standard text. So here is the asymmetry. The worst your method finds in the Besorah is one supplementary detail about how a traitor’s body came to lie in a field everyone agrees is his. Turned on your own scripture, the same method finds a caliph burning the competing copies. A man cannot wield higher criticism against the Gospels while suspending it over the Qur’an. Pick a standard and live under it.
It is not a contradiction. It is two truthful witnesses describing one death from two angles, and the principle you raised to attack them is the one that, applied without flinching, condemns your own book first.
Michael Boxerman מיכאל בוקסרמן retweeted
I need everyone to share this.
This is a 14-year-old Palestinian boy who tried to stab IDF soldiers to death.
The anti-Israel crowd edited the video to make it look like they killed him for no reason.
This is the full unedited version. Please make this go viral.
Sometimes people cannot be intellectually honest enough to have an honest conversation.
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The issue with people like this, is that they no understanding of Second Temple era Jewish thought, theology, or eschatology. They have no clue what Rabbi Singer means in this video. If they would only stop trying to read a 4th century Christian reading of scripture back onto the Tanakh, there would be no Supercessionism or Replacement Theology. There would be no Trinitarian theology either.
Replying to @outtheboxx
@RealMBoxerman77 & @toviasinger
Tovia says the messiah in Daniel is a “ MAN” whose dominion will last forever 🤣🤣 and will reign for 1000years
Wait ?? So a Jewish soldier will live for 1000 years & NOT DIE 🤣
Or does he pass on his dominion to his sons who continue it
This coward @JohnCTokalenko started a conversation that he couldn’t finish. Guess he didn’t have any answers after all.











