It’s not a ttrpg, but Gloomhaven has a sophisticated and elegant card system that results in very interesting combat scenarios. Would be a great reference.

Agreed. Thank you for the insightful conversation. Always nice to find someone willing to lock horns respectfully. Best of luck in your games. Cheers.

Does the character light a lamp, use an item or skill, are they traveling slow and safe or at a full gallop? All of these could have a meaningful and explicit impact on the outcome of the watch.

Completely agree. This is a very reasonable level of resolution for the situation you’ve described. None of these actions require adjudication, however. The moment that we begin adjudicating the watches, a simple “I perceive during my watch.” Doesn’t supply enough context.

I disagree that expecting players to engage with the world in explicit ways is characteristic of a play style. I agree that the correction is as simple as a DM asking for more specificity, but moving the onerous for that engagement to the DM should be the exception, not the rule.

Let me pause and say thanks for the thoughtful and respectful discourse. It’s not that common, but a real joy to disagree and not immediately start belittling each other. Thank you.

A Player could describe 10 different Persuasions that would adjudicate 10 different ways. Some might warrant success without a check at all. Some might require a check and some might fail without any check needed.

It’s not just better though… being descriptive is required for accurate adjudication. The descriptive element is the action by which we adjudicate success or failure. Simply stating a check is vacuous, but many players seem to think it should suffice.

Agreed. What’s considered right or wrong, good or bad, is to be decided by players and DMs at each table. It’s a good precedent though, as I’ve encountered many players who believe that “I make a perception check.” Is synonymous with assigning an action, which is inaccurate.

A barbarian crumbling a small boulder in his hands while his companions politely suggests The party be given access to the hideout. I’d ask for a STR Intimidation. In any case the context matters and the context is assigned by action not by a dice roll.

A rogue sinisterly finessing a blade while describing the exotic ways they’ve learned to cut a man. I’d ask for a CHA Intimidation check.

Is the guardsman willing to forsake his responsibility for personal gain? Is it well known that this town guard is the most disciplined and honorable in the realm?

“l slip 3 gold to the guardsman and whisper, “must be pretty lucrative guarding the imperial treasury.” Then I’ll casually walk between the guardsmen.” Is preferable to “I make a persuasion check.” A DM has no context for adjudication without any explicit assignment of action.

Admittedly, smashing a door is a more explicit scenario than the OP. I’d still argue it’s good form to state action rather than check. There is no analogous example though for the OP persuasion post as a persuasion check could mean anything.

Using language like “I look under the rug.” Allows the DM to assign the necessary roll. Maybe No roll is needed to notice the 4’x4’ hatch under the rug. That’s the DMs Role not the players.

This is especially important when we’re adjudicating player-imperfect information, as was addressed in Matt’s original post. Saying “I walk into the room and make a perception check” doesn’t actually mean anything. Are you glancing at the walls or looking under the rug?

Again, “I take action xyz” != “I make an xyz check.” Saying you kick down the door is great. Saying you make a specific check to do a specific thing isn’t your job as a player. Even if you’re 99% sure that’s the check you’ll be asked for.

I think this is the most misrepresented thread I’ve ever seen. Seems simple… Players: Assign actions for your character in the world. DM: Decide which rolls (if any) are needed. It’s an overreach for players to decide which rolls are needed to adjudicate their actions.

Saying “I kick open the door and search the room.” Is not the same as saying “I make an athletics check, followed by a perception check.” That’s his whole point.

Solid system and fun character creation.