
rl data @chakra_ai prev @citadel
New York, NY
Joined December 2021
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If you have worked closely with labs, you will understand that there is an interesting opportunity with CUA regarding the recent wave in data brokering
Data is still not being taken seriously in this market
Okay, so since I got laid off, I can actually explain a huge problem I saw from the inside with regard to industry practices on training models. I won't say specifically where I worked, but I worked at an outsource training provider that was focused on RLVR training data for computer use and mcp stuff.
Nearly all of the environments were rushed and vibecoded and failed to robustly reflect the real things they were based off. Both the scenario designers and models engaging with the scenarios for synthetic data gen were encouraged to work around the brokenness of said environments in order to get the procedurally verified reward confirmations. You know... they were *encouraged* to reward hack. On the human end, it was possible to mark an environment bugged, but greatly discouraged, as this reduced the volume of training data being produced. Instead, where possible, you were supposed to find the spots of the environment that weren't bugged and build scenarios around those, with the environment still bugged around you.
From what I understand, this training data, with these problems, is fed into models without indication that its training/a fake environment other than the fact that names of softwares are changed to placeholders, but thing is, not *everything* is changed to placeholder names in these environments. The presence of placeholder/code names isn't universal and thus when a model accesses something in an environment that it shouldn't, the code names not being on it isn't a robust signal that that thing isn't part of the environment.
I believe this *rush to maximum volume* is standard industry practice with these types of RLVR trainings as well, because maximizing volume has been an industry standard for years! It was the same standard applied to me and pushed on me despite my requests to slow down and focus on quality when I worked in 3d synthetic data creation as well, all the way back as far as 2023.
At a certain point frontier labs should just build out a solid incubator program
be at a big lab -> want to try a weird new idea -> big lab busy scaling the thing that already works -> leave big lab to start your own neolab --(we're here rn)--> weird new idea at the neolab works well -> get acquihired by the big lab
we're just living in a big git checkout -b new-paradigm followed by a very expensive merge
Kinda crazy that we’re seeing ai labs take larger and riskier bets with the recent m&a bids
My guess is labs want to pick up the pace of progression and work with a diligent research partner, which is pretty funny since most of the m&a candidates (data vendors, neolabs) have a founding team that was originally at these frontier labs
Or the labs could be worried about data vendors giving enterprises the tools to post train their own models
The data market has finally become more public about moving away from acquiring failed startups and instead making enterprise relationships -> getting some sort of monthly/quarterly dataset refresh from these companies
I've recently been thinking about how a single agent run can produce valuable data for many different businesses at once. These are the layers in the agent stack that deal with some form of trajectory capture:
harness - collects full trajectories (codex, claude code)
in app agents - these are also harnesses (notion agent, figma agent)
mcp providers - default mcps dont collect much but endoints that query agents will have nested trajectories (kagent)
external subagent providers - collects the parent context and has its own subagent trajectory (exa subagent, browser use)
gateway/observability platform - sdk, decorators, etc that can capture trajectory (braintrust/langsmith)
inference host - points base_url to them and can see almost full trajectory (fireworks, together ai)
model router - can log almost the full trajectory since they manage requests (openrouter)
sandbox provider - can see environment state changes and any trajectory artifacts (daytona)
post-training platforms - receives the full rollout (fireworks)
any that i missed?
Im surprised app layer companies arent pushing heavier incentives for their users to use their in-app agents (Notion agent, figma agent) rather than MCP
Offering mcp is basically conceding to more dominant general harnesses
there's an interesting split in observability for external subagents
if my agent called an external subagent to search something,
1) the subagent doesn't have full observability of the parent trajectory, only whatever context is passed down to it
2) the parent agent cannot see the full subagent trajectory, only the subagent output
they're each missing a piece of the "full trajectory"
this is why harness + subagent partnerships start to make sense ie ramp + browserbase
sometimes i forget how effective simple concepts like difficulty gap metrics are. great example
Replying to @kalomaze
synth envs can give you a broad lens on the types of things a model is good or bad at, and clever filters + diagnostics can highlight gaps you wouldn't normally find
i.e sorting tasks by what GLM saturates but GPTmini flails at lets you ask, whats the correlated meta problem?
everything changed when anthropic released the Madvillain ad
youtube.com/watch?v=FDNkDBNR…
The reason labs can’t solely train on their own user traces is because that data can only capture the current model capability
External data from data vendors is how labs can push to “n+1” model capability
great q&a by Chris and Sean
Yesterday I interviewed @SeanZCai about AI data.
This is essentially a guide for founders on how to sell data and RL envs to AI labs.
"I've never seen a data contract get turned down by a top lab, if it's good quality data, for budget reasons."
00:00 What areas of data are underserved?
02:10 For bio data, is it real-world or purely digital?
04:21 For cyber data, which subsets are most underserved?
05:50 What is the sales process like?
07:04 Why would a lab not renew or increase their purchase volume?
10:13 When a researcher is exploring a new direction, what's the first step?
11:35 In robotics data, what do you view as underserved?
13:12 What does the initial data delivery look like, what format?
13:53 Do labs have more sophisticated internal setups for running environments?
14:32 Are the non-frontier labs buying off-the-shelf data from Anthropic / OpenAI vendors?
16:11 Do Anthropic data vendors put expiry timeframes on the exclusivity?
16:42 Are purchase decisions researcher-led?
17:41 Decagon, Sierra, Ramp: what kinds of data are they buying?
19:06 Long-term, when do labs still need to buy external data vs train on user traces?
21:15 Will end-vendor benchmarks shift to performance per dollar?
22:04 How many labs are spending at the 1B+/yr data level?
23:53 Delta between Anthropic's stated $1B and your 10-20B/lab number?
26:05 What makes inference providers / neoclouds a good fit to acquire RL env cos?
Ton of gems in here regarding chinese ai labs. the one that stood out to me was the rl env market in China
it's quite fascinating the difference in strategy btwn the US and China on data: The US buys and China builds.
in general, frontier labs are bottlenecked on figuring out what the next training paradigm needs in terms of data. luckily for the US labs, they can outsource this guesswork and effort to the vast vendor ecosystem to build it for them
in China, there aren't any big data vendor winners because
1) chinese labs got burned with poor quality domestic data early on
2) a large chunk of the labs' research talent are active students that come with fresh eyes/no ego and are HUNGRY
which lets these chinese labs full-send building envs and data in-house
Visiting most of the leading Chinese AI labs, I'm struck by a culture that's extremely well suited to building LLMs with fewer resources, but one happening in a very different ecosystem, more companies at play, almost no data industry, etc.
Full report: interconnects.ai/p/notes-fro…
from my experience, researchers are quite open to answering questions or giving advice. they're truly doing it for the love of the game
highly recommend becoming pen pals with a handful of researchers
The winning data vendors all measure and pitch the outcome-based value of their data to customers
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